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Goddess
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PostSubject: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:21 pm

Answer me this ..

clearly this is a very heated debate for Journey lovers - but it seems pretty clear to me that all the people saying Journey has no future and the only time they would have had a shot at a hit album is with JSS. Yet Journey is getting more exposure and radio play than they have had in a LONG time. I'm not saying Arnel is great - honestly I haven't heard him sing any journey songs.. but it just seems a lame argument for the people supporting JSS. Obviously "there only shot at a hit album was with JSS" - is not true..
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:03 pm

Goddess wrote:
Answer me this ..

clearly this is a very heated debate for Journey lovers - but it seems pretty clear to me that all the people saying Journey has no future and the only time they would have had a shot at a hit album is with JSS. Yet Journey is getting more exposure and radio play than they have had in a LONG time. I'm not saying Arnel is great - honestly I haven't heard him sing any journey songs.. but it just seems a lame argument for the people supporting JSS. Obviously "there only shot at a hit album was with JSS" - is not true..

well it think the jss supporters saying "only shot at a hit album" were looking for journey to go in a new direction and have a hit in the current music atmosphere. with arnel they are using the same formula they used for augeri, a somewhat updated legacy sound. i think the new cd is arrival part 2. but clearly the "hit" factor is because arnel brings in an international fanbase with a lot of supporters of his own here in the states. the international aspect coupled with youtube is what i think is driving all the attention and will put this album into hit factor. had it been this album with any other new singer, i don't see it getting the same kudos.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:13 pm

This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:55 pm

JSS promised hope for a new Journey sound that we could all move on with. Arnel is just more of them trying to fool people into thinking "the Journey sound" isn't really dependent on "The Perry Sound".
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:27 pm

ohsherrie wrote:
JSS promised hope for a new Journey sound that we could all move on with. Arnel is just more of them trying to fool people into thinking "the Journey sound" isn't really dependent on "The Perry Sound".

The JSS thing isn't the issue for me anymore, that's over and done wit. The fact is now is that Arnel is just there to get out albums that sound like Perry. And I must admit - he really does sound like Perry. Even though there are obvious issues people have with him - they are getting what they want. I don't give a shit either way - I'm not a fan of Arnel only cuz to me he's painful to watch on stage.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:00 pm

Goddess wrote:
Answer me this ..

clearly this is a very heated debate for Journey lovers - but it seems pretty clear to me that all the people saying Journey has no future and the only time they would have had a shot at a hit album is with JSS. Yet Journey is getting more exposure and radio play than they have had in a LONG time. I'm not saying Arnel is great - honestly I haven't heard him sing any journey songs.. but it just seems a lame argument for the people supporting JSS. Obviously "there only shot at a hit album was with JSS" - is not true..

JOURNEY needed someone to market that would revive their current fanbase AND capture a new/youthful audience as youth is what makes or breaks an artist's efforts. I had been preaching this for years via my Latin Rhythm Project. Maybe they listened to me because Arnel has it all:
1. A voice to market.
2. A very compelling and marketable personal story.
3. A new fanbase made up of dedicated Arnel fans who probably know little if nothing at all about the JOURNEY drama and history. This is a fan base that would not only cheer for Arnel but also discover JOURNEY and purchase the back catalog.

JSS and Hunsicker can sing (I'm not a fan of JH) but neither one's personal story is marketable. JC I think tried to prime JH with his coaxing him during the audition process. You may recall JH commenting that JC was pitching a song to him like: I can see this being about your life - how you've struggled to make it as an artist... That's when JH (as he noted in his blog and on MR.com) blew up at JC and "set him straight" about the fact that he HAS a great life, etc., etc. JH should've read a book about how to win over your potential employer during an interview because that kind of reaction is what I believe sealed his fate regardless of him being offered the job anyway.

Some fans are sick of hearing about Arnel's story. Well, it's his story that's made JOURNEY marketable! The YouTube thing is very compelling. Arguably YouTube is this generation's MTV. JOURNEY was hip to MTV back in the day and now they're hip to YT which makes JOURNEY hip again whether certain fans want to recognize it or not.

Think about how REVELATION would've been marketed with JSS or JH at the mic. JH's story is the more compelling of the two however he never would've been able to pull off the whole "I never would've made it without JOURNEY" schtick because he displayed otherwise in his audition.

JSS would've had the whole Tapegate thing hanging over him as he was the guy who saved the day for JOURNEY when things went bad with SA. Bad storyline because for JOURNEY to be perceived as credible then they are the ones who need to do the saving - not the other way around. With JSS they would've been perceived as an irrelevant band unable to play their way through a wet paper bag.

With Arnel JOURNEY is perceived as a relevant band that's hip to YouTube and became one singer's saving grace. A legend in the making.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:51 pm

Fyre, I understand your points and agree with some. However as a long time hard rock fan, Arnel looks like a little midget sissy to me and not a frontman. I wouldn't pay 10 cents to see poorly pronounced karoake no matter how good his voice may be.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:52 pm

Wow! Holy shit! Fyre breaks into the ORR forums with a vengeance. Good points John, but how long do you think fans are going continue to ride the "poor waif makes good" campaign that the Journey camp has assaulted the media with? The fans will grow tired of hearing it over and over again very quickly. Probably even faster as soon as the next "flavor of the month" becomes hot. The revelation sales are decent enough but I am going to attribute that to the Philipino contingent living and working in the US. They too will grow weary of the story line as it paints their homeland as some hugely poverty stricken country and makes them all look like paupers. Don't get me wrong here, I reviewed Revelations here for the site and I found some decent music in it and some really promising vocal performances from Arnel. I just think they are going to try and bleed the fanbase at large for every dime of the feel good rags to riches storyline for as long as the wave will carry them. In my opinion, that's not particularly fair to Arnel. Instead of focusing on the guy's obvious talent, the Journey brain trust want to draw attention to his background, and to me that is a huge mistake!

Oh and by the way - WELCOME TO ORR FYRE!!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:48 am

AR wrote:
Fyre, I understand your points and agree with some. However as a long time hard rock fan, Arnel looks like a little midget sissy to me and not a frontman. I wouldn't pay 10 cents to see poorly pronounced karoake no matter how good his voice may be.

You wouldn't but I don't think you're part of the fan base that they're trying to appeal to - which is by far smaller than what they need to get into GQ, People, TIME, CBS Morning Show and Ellen.

No way would they've ever gotten onto Ellen with JSS or JH.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:33 am

GOD wrote:
Wow! Holy shit! Fyre breaks into the ORR forums with a vengeance. Good points John, but how long do you think fans are going continue to ride the "poor waif makes good" campaign that the Journey camp has assaulted the media with? The fans will grow tired of hearing it over and over again very quickly. Probably even faster as soon as the next "flavor of the month" becomes hot. The revelation sales are decent enough but I am going to attribute that to the Philipino contingent living and working in the US. They too will grow weary of the story line as it paints their homeland as some hugely poverty stricken country and makes them all look like paupers. Don't get me wrong here, I reviewed Revelations here for the site and I found some decent music in it and some really promising vocal performances from Arnel. I just think they are going to try and bleed the fanbase at large for every dime of the feel good rags to riches storyline for as long as the wave will carry them. In my opinion, that's not particularly fair to Arnel. Instead of focusing on the guy's obvious talent, the Journey brain trust want to draw attention to his background, and to me that is a huge mistake!

Oh and by the way - WELCOME TO ORR FYRE!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the invitation!

I think fans will ride it long enough for REVELATION to make them some money. It's also going to attract non-fans or fans who'd "forgotten" JOURNEY.

I think you're right about the Filipino fan sales. Again, I believe that was a calculated move to attract them. Comparing Arnel's fans and fan potential based on his nationality to JSS' and JH's: who has the greater base and potential? Arnel. I made this argument on MR.com in comparing YouTube hits between Arnel and JH. Ultimately, I was RIGHT. YouTube was part of the whole storyline here! Which is the better human interest story?

A. JOURNEY "discovers" a struggling Arnel on YouTube (which if people search they'll find LOTS of his videos and LOTS of support).
B. JOURNEY finds new lead singer via a tribute band.
C. JOURNEY continues with European talent JSS who helped them when SA (the other replacement singer) was sick.

Come on, now. It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure this one out!

Hey, that "mistake" is EXACTLY what's getting them media attention and selling REVELATION! I'd venture to presume that they even struck up some kind of deal with YouTube and I bet we'll here about it in the near future.

Like it or not the Arnel story is what's selling REVELATION.

Think back to INFINITY. What sold that album? Steve Perry? No. He wasn't known then and his story about being out of the business because a previous band member died wasn't all that compelling. It was the producer: Roy Thomas Baker. Back then a producer's talents sold albums by embellishing an artist with a certain sound. Phil Spector is an even greater example of that. It always takes SOMETHING to sell an album - some gimmick or interest beyond the actual music. Were The Beatles' albums sold purely on the music? NO!!! There were LOTS of human interests with them - they were media clowns and considered "dangerous" by parents in the same vein with Elvis' wiggling hips. Do I need to mention KISS? Listen, these are extreme examples but they are valid to the point that it takes interest beyond the music. In this case, REVELATION is sold on the Arnel story which also includes a TON of YouTube enthusiasts. No YouTube story with JSS or JH so there's HUGE loss with them in that department.

Look, I could go on and on about this but I think you get my point and if you think on it further you'll probably see lots more dots that are connected.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:37 am

greg wrote:
This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."

Please don't take offense. Those are 5 valid reasons however it only takes ONE - one that will be appealing to a mass audience.

What's easier for the media to report? The 5 reasons above or Arnel's "Struggling YouTube artist saved by JOURNEY" ???

Arnel's story is the one that's by far more media-friendly.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:31 pm

FyreWyngz wrote:
greg wrote:
This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."

Please don't take offense. Those are 5 valid reasons however it only takes ONE - one that will be appealing to a mass audience.

What's easier for the media to report? The 5 reasons above or Arnel's "Struggling YouTube artist saved by JOURNEY" ???

Arnel's story is the one that's by far more media-friendly.

Possibly so, but I just feel Jeff brought so much more to the band. I don't believe the guys from Journey truly wanted someone as seasoned like Jeff, because JSS could take a lead role in the band (as far as decision making, etc.) I think Journey just wanted a hired hand. Someone who just comes in to sing lead and nothing more.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:53 pm

greg wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:
greg wrote:
This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."

Please don't take offense. Those are 5 valid reasons however it only takes ONE - one that will be appealing to a mass audience.

What's easier for the media to report? The 5 reasons above or Arnel's "Struggling YouTube artist saved by JOURNEY" ???

Arnel's story is the one that's by far more media-friendly.

Possibly so, but I just feel Jeff brought so much more to the band. I don't believe the guys from Journey truly wanted someone as seasoned like Jeff, because JSS could take a lead role in the band (as far as decision making, etc.) I think Journey just wanted a hired hand. Someone who just comes in to sing lead and nothing more.

and that lead role, as far as decision making, as in he pushed for new music, was part of what made it easy for them to dump augeri when he was down. now they have what they want, the "yes sir mr schon mr cain" man.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:11 pm

greg wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:
greg wrote:
This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."

Please don't take offense. Those are 5 valid reasons however it only takes ONE - one that will be appealing to a mass audience.

What's easier for the media to report? The 5 reasons above or Arnel's "Struggling YouTube artist saved by JOURNEY" ???

Arnel's story is the one that's by far more media-friendly.

Possibly so, but I just feel Jeff brought so much more to the band. I don't believe the guys from Journey truly wanted someone as seasoned like Jeff, because JSS could take a lead role in the band (as far as decision making, etc.) I think Journey just wanted a hired hand. Someone who just comes in to sing lead and nothing more.

Right. And with Arnel they have a hired hand with a very compelling story. I don't know that you can blame them for that approach. It seems to be working out in their favor.

My question is: what are they going to do when Arnel "gets it" and decides that he deserves/wants more?
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:05 am

FyreWyngz wrote:
[ You may recall JH commenting that JC was pitching a song to him like: I can see this being about your life - how you've struggled to make it as an artist...


Bingo. I think it was more the YouTube/third world waif/rags to riches PR angle that made Arnel their choice than because of his ability to imitate Perry. Like God said though, that'll only carry them so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:43 am

ohsherrie wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:
[ You may recall JH commenting that JC was pitching a song to him like: I can see this being about your life - how you've struggled to make it as an artist...


Bingo. I think it was more the YouTube/third world waif/rags to riches PR angle that made Arnel their choice than because of his ability to imitate Perry. Like God said though, that'll only carry them so far.

I'm sure they're aware of that and more than likely have a plan to cross that bridge when they get to it. For now however things are going according to plans. The simple, headline Arnel story has sufficiently intrigued the media.

Personally, I'm at a loss as to what their next gimmick might be. Let's be honest, it's gimmicks that sell music. What sold E5C4P3? Sure. The music was fresh and exciting and JOURNEY had new teen girl eye candy in Jon Cain but the whole concept of escaping in the scarab spaceship became the catalyst and eventually the icon of a generation - not to mention a nifty video game. FRONTIERS' "let's rock into new frontiers" gimmick was fine and of course, ROR's Motown/R&B-flavored, anti-MTV (despite their supporting it previously during E5C4P3) worked out quite well. DEPARTURE was carried by the movie Caddy Shack. E5C4P3 was also helped by the animation Heavy Metal. INFINITY and EVOLUTION were both Roy Thomas Baker babies. It'all very much superficial, no?

Here's another gimmick - I'd venture to bet that they gave JH writing credits simply to appease his supporters and/or any potential legal issues. It worked, too because he seems to be a happy camper now and I've also seen many JH fan responses along the way of, "Nice to see JH get some credit after what they did to him."

Smoke and mirrors folks, smoke and mirrors! Even if I'm wrong and REVELATION wasn't consciously thought out then that means JOURNEY has the dumbest luck ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:00 am

iRockJava wrote:
greg wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:
greg wrote:
This is the reason why us JSS supporters felt so strongly about being Journey's biggest shot at success again:

1. First of all, Jeff is like Steve Perry in the sense that Perry was very versatile with his style. I never thought Augeri was that versatile in his singing style, although I thought he was a good singer. Arnel is versatile in that he can imitate other singers (Perry, Jamison, Bon Jovi..etc..) Jeff's own style can go from Heavy Metal to R and B. Listen to his earlier, harder material, then listen to his Ballads CD.

2. Jeff knows how to put on a show, and everyone who was lucky enough to attend a Journey concert when Jeff was singing lead were very impressed.

3. Journey could've finally broke free from the (it must sound like Steve Perry) chain and start doing more modernistic sounding songs. Not saying for them to sell out, but they could've moved in a completely new direction, that many of us Jeff fans felt would've sounded pretty darn good.

4. Jeff is one of those artists that (unfortunately for the record company) fell through the cracks. He's an extremely talented guy who should've been much bigger than what he has been so far in his career. I felt all he needed was a household name backing him up, and Jeff could've been huge. I just thought the marriage between Journey and Jeff Scott Soto was the perfect formula that both parties needed to write some special music together.

5. Jeff can write some great songs. Yes, I realize he has no "hits" according to Billboard magazine or Rolling Stone, but Jeff can write some good stuff. I can't help it if those in power in the music business is deaf, dumb, and blind. But, Jeff has already shown that he can write some great tunes, so you know between his song writing and Cain's, there could've been some great stuff presented to us....songs that would've blown anything from Revelation off the map in my opinion.

I understand I'm typing all of this in a biased point of view, but I suppose with all that has happened in Journeyland, Jeff was the fresh start the band needed. Arnel can sing, I definitely give him that. And, he has the "signature" voice that Journey has been looking for (although I still find fault in his diction,) but I am getting so tired of these bands looking back to the past in order to capture magic again. Sometimes, you just have to realize the past brought good things for you, but the future can bring even better things. After all, who says that Journey HAS to have a tenor like Perry singing for them? Why can't they let the past go and do something different? I just don't see Arnel as anything different from what they were trying for with Steve Augeri. Loved Augeri mind you, but after awhile, I'm kind of like "ok, let's do something different."

Please don't take offense. Those are 5 valid reasons however it only takes ONE - one that will be appealing to a mass audience.

What's easier for the media to report? The 5 reasons above or Arnel's "Struggling YouTube artist saved by JOURNEY" ???

Arnel's story is the one that's by far more media-friendly.

Possibly so, but I just feel Jeff brought so much more to the band. I don't believe the guys from Journey truly wanted someone as seasoned like Jeff, because JSS could take a lead role in the band (as far as decision making, etc.) I think Journey just wanted a hired hand. Someone who just comes in to sing lead and nothing more.

and that lead role, as far as decision making, as in he pushed for new music, was part of what made it easy for them to dump augeri when he was down. now they have what they want, the "yes sir mr schon mr cain" man.

True. And the music certainly displays this. I'm a big fan of REVELATION and think it's a nice little treasure but my main criticism is that it's the Schon/Cain show which results in a less dynamic effort. Three talents are best. Arnel sounds "forced" to sing in ways that SA was but that SP never would. SP would change up melodies to suit his voice but SA and AP never seemed "allowed" to do that as everything since ARRIVAL sounds like either a JC solo with NS guest appearances or a NS solo with JC guest appearances. Will JC ever learn to shut-up? I can't understand how he can listen back to lines that jam way too many words into them and like what he hears. Less is more - take out some of the friggin' verbage and leave something for the singer to sing for crying out loud. The one thing that SP brought to the band that they sorely miss was SIMPLICITY. Maybe they'll wise up to this and permit AP to help simplify.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:45 am

FyreWyngz wrote:

True. And the music certainly displays this. I'm a big fan of REVELATION and think it's a nice little treasure but my main criticism is that it's the Schon/Cain show which results in a less dynamic effort. Three talents are best. Arnel sounds "forced" to sing in ways that SA was but that SP never would. SP would change up melodies to suit his voice but SA and AP never seemed "allowed" to do that as everything since ARRIVAL sounds like either a JC solo with NS guest appearances or a NS solo with JC guest appearances. Will JC ever learn to shut-up? I can't understand how he can listen back to lines that jam way too many words into them and like what he hears. Less is more - take out some of the friggin' verbage and leave something for the singer to sing for crying out loud. The one thing that SP brought to the band that they sorely miss was SIMPLICITY. Maybe they'll wise up to this and permit AP to help simplify.

No offense to Arnel, but I'm not sure how much he can help since English isn't his first language (again, not trying to put the man down just stating the facts.) Arnel is probably doing all he can do just to sing whatever lyrics and melody they are giving him to sing. And secondly, I haven't heard many english songs that Arnel has written, so I'm not sure exactly how strong of a song writer the guy is. Unless Journey starts inviting song writers to contribute to the band, it's going to be the same stuff over and over again. While I think Revelation is a nice sounding album (with the exception of Faith In The Heartland,) that stuff is going to get old really quick.

I can picture Schon and Cain sitting down and saying, "What is going to be our next "Faithfully" or our next "Don't Stop Believing"? Eventually, you have to get out of that mind set and say, "What other avenues can we explore that will take us to our next hit song that has legs of its own?" Some fans don't like change, but eventually you have to branch out. Journey did this several times during their early career and it worked.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:25 pm

greg wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:

True. And the music certainly displays this. I'm a big fan of REVELATION and think it's a nice little treasure but my main criticism is that it's the Schon/Cain show which results in a less dynamic effort. Three talents are best. Arnel sounds "forced" to sing in ways that SA was but that SP never would. SP would change up melodies to suit his voice but SA and AP never seemed "allowed" to do that as everything since ARRIVAL sounds like either a JC solo with NS guest appearances or a NS solo with JC guest appearances. Will JC ever learn to shut-up? I can't understand how he can listen back to lines that jam way too many words into them and like what he hears. Less is more - take out some of the friggin' verbage and leave something for the singer to sing for crying out loud. The one thing that SP brought to the band that they sorely miss was SIMPLICITY. Maybe they'll wise up to this and permit AP to help simplify.

No offense to Arnel, but I'm not sure how much he can help since English isn't his first language (again, not trying to put the man down just stating the facts.) Arnel is probably doing all he can do just to sing whatever lyrics and melody they are giving him to sing. And secondly, I haven't heard many english songs that Arnel has written, so I'm not sure exactly how strong of a song writer the guy is. Unless Journey starts inviting song writers to contribute to the band, it's going to be the same stuff over and over again. While I think Revelation is a nice sounding album (with the exception of Faith In The Heartland,) that stuff is going to get old really quick.

I can picture Schon and Cain sitting down and saying, "What is going to be our next "Faithfully" or our next "Don't Stop Believing"? Eventually, you have to get out of that mind set and say, "What other avenues can we explore that will take us to our next hit song that has legs of its own?" Some fans don't like change, but eventually you have to branch out. Journey did this several times during their early career and it worked.

From what I understand Arnel's got just as much command of English as Neal does! afro

Even if Arnel's English is "simpler" then THAT is what they need!

Take a close look at REVELATION's lyrics. If you're into lyrics like I am you'll note many "lifts" from old JOURNEY songs. The "saving grace" idea is near intolerable. How about "I've still got livin' to do" from CFTB. UGH. There's lots of direct lyrical and imagery lifts. I believe Rolling Stone got it right when they called it "schlock". Schlock is fine and REVELATION is fine but take away the Arnel story and the schlock is even schlockier.

I just HATE how every song is so cliche-filled. SCHLOCK. Again, schlock is fine but COME ON! Does it have to be so damn blatant?

From AATY
"Make a livin' up and down the gypsy highways
The many seasons we have spent apart"

<GAG> Puh-leeez. This is schlock at its finest/worst. If you want to write a song about gypsy highways then do so. Or if you want to write a song about seasons (one of my favorite themes) then do so but PLEASE do NOT - under ANY circumstances - jam them into a song in which they do NOT belong. It coes across as so friggin' contrived. More accurately, as SCHLOCK. These lines have NO RIGHT in this song. None. It's Song Writing 101 for crying out loud! Well, I should say GOOD Song Writing 101. JC is from the school of Schlock Song Writing.

Again, schlock is fine but DAMN! Draw a friggin' line NOT to cross!!!

This is where SP's missed. NO WAY would he put up with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:52 pm

Greg it's no huge stretch for Neal and Jon to use outside writers. Look at Arrival, Jack Blades is listed numerous times on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:43 am

GOD wrote:
Greg it's no huge stretch for Neal and Jon to use outside writers. Look at Arrival, Jack Blades is listed numerous times on it.

Blades co-wrote 4 songs (and a slew of other writers co-wrote, too). Co-writing is one thing - being part of the final recording is another. I don't believe Blades played on any of the 4 that he co-wrote. This is why ARRIVAL sounds like the NS/JC show.

I was of the though that the outside writers were possibly the gimmick that was pitched to SONY: "Dudes, listen up! We got this guy Steve Augeri who sounds like SP and whose name even rhymes with his! We made him grow sideburns and his hair longer so he's got the SP look, too. Nobody's going to miss SP 'cause this guy's close enough. We even brought in a high-powered writers like Jack Blades and Andre Pessis. This album's gonna RAWK!"

LOL!!! After I wrote that I tried Googling for Tribble (one of the other co-writers on ARRIVAL) and found Billboard's review of ARRIVAL:
http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/discography/index.jsp?pid=4963&aid=471925

Check out what's in bold - the exact 3 points i just made! ARRIVAL was pitched on those points and clearly, Billboard picked up on them, too.

Journey was formed originally as a vehicle for Neal Schon's guitar pyrotechnics, but after five years the band sought out a lead singer to give them mainstream pop appeal, and Steve Perry did that, helping them to a string of seven consecutive multi-platinum albums before the band broke up in 1987. A 1996 reunion put them back in the winners' circle with Trial by Fire, but Perry then bowed out for health reasons, putting Journey in the sticky position of recruiting a new lead singer. (Drummer Steve Smith has also been replaced by Deen Castronovo formerly of Bad English.) They chose a soundalike, Steve Augeri, which suggests that they are more concerned with recreating their hits in concert than in making new music. A group of Journey's vintage always risks sounding like a copy band of itself, and Arrival, the first full-length album with Augeri, realizes that danger. The singer doesn't quite have Perry's smooth, flowing tenor, but he's close enough so that much of the time, especially in big arrangements, he can fool you, though at unadorned moments on ballads he sounds different. When he's not singing, the music is even more like Journey, with Schon's soaring leads supported by Jonathan Cain's bright keyboards in typical arena rock arrangements. It's hard to argue that the generalized romantic sentiments that make up the lyrics, here contributed by a variety of people including Augeri and Cain's wife, are any worse than Perry's, but Perry sang his words with more feeling than Augeri does. So, the new Journey turns out to be a half-step back to the old (make that the old, old Journey -- pre-Perry, when Schon ruled). Odds are, that will be a more difficult sell at record stores, though Augeri's similarity to Perry means that the concert revenues shouldn't suffer. ~ William Ruhlmann, All Music Guide
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:51 pm

GOD wrote:
Greg it's no huge stretch for Neal and Jon to use outside writers. Look at Arrival, Jack Blades is listed numerous times on it.

Exactly! Arrival had some good songs on there and of course, I absolutely LOVED "Remember Me" from the Armageddon soundtrack. I think that song, RM, is what made me feel that the Journey could continue on without Steve Perry. Like what Fyre said, maybe if Blades had seen the writing process through to the recording stage, the songs would be even better. I actually felt Arrival was a great album, save for the fact that it was too long (too many songs for my taste!) But, yeah, it probably could've been better.

For the record, I have heard two, maybe three Pineda written songs that he wrote in English. They were ok. I didn't really hear anything that I feel would help Journey in the song writing aspect. And, I really just didn't like Augeri writing songs for the band either. I think he did some good stuff with Tall Stories, and I enjoy listening to Augeri sing (patiently waiting for the next TS release,) but I just didn't like what he brought to the band in a song writing sense.

It's just tough to beat Perry when it comes to a third song writer. He was the perfect fit to collaborate with Neal and Jon. I think what you get from the boys at this stage is reused, rehashed lyrics and ideas, guitar riffs and piano melodies. Sure, all bands do this, but eventually it becomes so obvious that it's not funny. Even though Red 13 was not very popular in it's sound amongst Journey fans, at least Journey was trying to move in a new direction musically.

Look at a band like Metallica. I don't believe any of their albums sounded exactly the same (except for Load and Reload, but I believe a lot of those songs were written around the same time.) Even though St. Anger was trash, at least the guys tried to do something different. If it hits, then they have recreated themselves, if not, then ya know to go back and do something a bit more familar but still not to abandon experimentation.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:51 am

greg wrote:
GOD wrote:
Greg it's no huge stretch for Neal and Jon to use outside writers. Look at Arrival, Jack Blades is listed numerous times on it.

Exactly! Arrival had some good songs on there and of course, I absolutely LOVED "Remember Me" from the Armageddon soundtrack. I think that song, RM, is what made me feel that the Journey could continue on without Steve Perry. Like what Fyre said, maybe if Blades had seen the writing process through to the recording stage, the songs would be even better. I actually felt Arrival was a great album, save for the fact that it was too long (too many songs for my taste!) But, yeah, it probably could've been better.

...It's just tough to beat Perry when it comes to a third song writer. He was the perfect fit to collaborate with Neal and Jon. I think what you get from the boys at this stage is reused, rehashed lyrics and ideas, guitar riffs and piano melodies. Sure, all bands do this, but eventually it becomes so obvious that it's not funny. Even though Red 13 was not very popular in it's sound amongst Journey fans, at least Journey was trying to move in a new direction musically.

Maybe Blades needed to produce ARRIVAL? Neal and Jon need someone like SP to keep them in check!

To your point about reused, rehashed lyrics and riffs: there's ONE line from ARRIVAL that struck me and actually sums up the whole album. In Signs Of Life: By the way...what are you tryin' to say?"

Exactly. WTF are you trying to say?! BLAH, BLAH, BLAH for 4-5 minutes x 15 songs!

To top it off - end the song with the same outro from Who's Cryin' Now.

I'd like to see a song from JOURNEY in the future NOT reference:
Doing something in the early morning light.
Walk or not walk away (goes all the way back to The Babys).
Getting caught in any number of things.
Something spinning around.
Grace/State of grace/Saving grace/Blessings.
Facing/trials of/going through fire (despite that this theme inspired my name).
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:08 am

FyreWyngz wrote:


Maybe Blades needed to produce ARRIVAL? Neal and Jon need someone like SP to keep them in check!

To your point about reused, rehashed lyrics and riffs: there's ONE line from ARRIVAL that struck me and actually sums up the whole album. In Signs Of Life: By the way...what are you tryin' to say?"

Exactly. WTF are you trying to say?! BLAH, BLAH, BLAH for 4-5 minutes x 15 songs!

To top it off - end the song with the same outro from Who's Cryin' Now.

I'd like to see a song from JOURNEY in the future NOT reference:
Doing something in the early morning light.
Walk or not walk away (goes all the way back to The Babys).
Getting caught in any number of things.
Something spinning around.
Grace/State of grace/Saving grace/Blessings.
Facing/trials of/going through fire (despite that this theme inspired my name).


Maybe I do want Journey to sell out? I just want them to change their sound to something new, fresh, and different. Maybe a mix of Linkin Park (not the "rapping but the music") and have a guitar sound of something like a cross between 3 Doors Down and Godsmack. Nothing too heavy, just not so 80ish sounding. Neal could still throw in his trademark guitar solos and Jon could still use a hint of his 80ish style piano, just not so obvious. Maybe just enough to let people know it's Journey, but it's a new band, not a band trying to recreate what's already been done. Most may disagree with what I'd like for Journey to do (since a lot of us like the melodic rock sound,) but again, Journey was big in the 80's largely do to the creativity of coming up with different sounds (Escape and Frontiers don't sound the same, and of course RoR doesn't sound the same as those albums.)

After awhile, all of the albums start sounding exactly the same and there is really no reason to keep buying the same album over and over again.
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PostSubject: Re: Arnel - Journey   Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:44 pm

greg wrote:
FyreWyngz wrote:


Maybe Blades needed to produce ARRIVAL? Neal and Jon need someone like SP to keep them in check!

To your point about reused, rehashed lyrics and riffs: there's ONE line from ARRIVAL that struck me and actually sums up the whole album. In Signs Of Life: By the way...what are you tryin' to say?"

Exactly. WTF are you trying to say?! BLAH, BLAH, BLAH for 4-5 minutes x 15 songs!

To top it off - end the song with the same outro from Who's Cryin' Now.

I'd like to see a song from JOURNEY in the future NOT reference:
Doing something in the early morning light.
Walk or not walk away (goes all the way back to The Babys).
Getting caught in any number of things.
Something spinning around.
Grace/State of grace/Saving grace/Blessings.
Facing/trials of/going through fire (despite that this theme inspired my name).


Maybe I do want Journey to sell out? I just want them to change their sound to something new, fresh, and different. Maybe a mix of Linkin Park (not the "rapping but the music") and have a guitar sound of something like a cross between 3 Doors Down and Godsmack. Nothing too heavy, just not so 80ish sounding. Neal could still throw in his trademark guitar solos and Jon could still use a hint of his 80ish style piano, just not so obvious. Maybe just enough to let people know it's Journey, but it's a new band, not a band trying to recreate what's already been done. Most may disagree with what I'd like for Journey to do (since a lot of us like the melodic rock sound,) but again, Journey was big in the 80's largely do to the creativity of coming up with different sounds (Escape and Frontiers don't sound the same, and of course RoR doesn't sound the same as those albums.)

After awhile, all of the albums start sounding exactly the same and there is really no reason to keep buying the same album over and over again.




I know what you are saying Greg. But 95% of the fans and that is being nice would not accept Journey for doing that. They want to hear the Journey sound. To me the new sound was Neal's other band which was Soul Sirkus. They should have continued that band and who knows what would have finally happened. I understand why he did not continue that band. That was the new Journey sound but under a different name.
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