YEAH SUPREME COURT CALIFORNIA!!

The voters in CA decided to vote on what other people can and can't do - and thankfully the supreme court overruled the decision. Gay marriage is now allowed in the state of CA.

Thank GOD!!

I think it's ludicrous that there even is a vote. We have NO right to tell others how to live their life. I think it's ridiculous that anyone has a say in anyone elses life choice. And I'm just thankful that the supreme court over ruled it!!

OK. I'll play "devil's advocate".

First off, I think that two consenting adults can do what ever they want to do, in the privacy of their home, or behind "closed doors". I have no problem with that.

In terms of a legally binding contract, like marriage, this might present a few unexpected problems:

* Health insurers would now have to allow same sex spouses onto health insurance plans (assuming the health plan is an "open-enrollment" type plan). In terms of gay men, the insurers would most likely have to take into account (actuarially) the increased risk (and treatment costs) of AIDS and HIV. This would mean that health insurance costs would have to rise (across the board) for everyone, regardless of sexual inclination. Heterosexual people (whom I would still consider to be in the majority) may have a big problem with this. Look for some health insurers to even pull out of the state of CA. (This should not present a problem with gay women).

* It won't be long before other "Special Interest Groups" will want and lobby for special considerations.

So this situation may have opened up a "big can of worms", which may present future problems.

I just wanted to present another point of view, and give some food for thought.

nolliD JJ wrote:

OK. I'll play "devil's advocate".

First off, I think that two consenting adults can do what ever they want to do, in the privacy of their home, or behind "closed doors". I have no problem with that.

In terms of a legally binding contract, like marriage, this might present a few unexpected problems:

* Health insurers would now have to allow same sex spouses onto health insurance plans (assuming the health plan is an "open-enrollment" type plan). In terms of gay men, the insurers would most likely have to take into account (actuarially) the increased risk (and treatment costs) of AIDS and HIV. This would mean that health insurance costs would have to rise (across the board) for everyone, regardless of sexual inclination. Heterosexual people (whom I would still consider to be in the majority) may have a big problem with this. Look for some health insurers to even pull out of the state of CA. (This should not present a problem with gay women).

* It won't be long before other "Special Interest Groups" will want and lobby for special considerations.

So this situation may have opened up a "big can of worms", which may present future problems.

I just wanted to present another point of view, and give some food for thought.

I appreciate the devils advocate - but I still completely disagree with it.

I think that the argument about HIV and AIDS unfairly lumping a minority together - especially when the statitics are showing that the numbers are growing in all walks of life (unfortunately).

What about women being insured? Won't it cost as substantial amount of money because there is a good chance that they will have a child (maybe more) and that will cost a lot in health insurance as well as 3 months maternity leave off of the job. And God forbid the woman is infertile - IVF, drugs, infertility treatments - all covered by health care. Should people start taking that into consideration? What if a women has a history of breast cancer in her family? Or a man has a history of prostate cancer? There is always an argument.

I think same sex marriages should have the same exact rights as anyone. I'm sure that there will be people that are going to fight agaisnt this and it infuriates me.

But I appreciate you responding

Goddess wrote:

The voters in CA decided to vote on what other people can and can't do - and thankfully the supreme court overruled the decision. Gay marriage is now allowed in the state of CA.

Thank GOD!!

I think it's ludicrous that there even is a vote. We have NO right to tell others how to live their life. I think it's ridiculous that anyone has a say in anyone elses life choice. And I'm just thankful that the supreme court over ruled it!!

I'm so completely with you on this Goddess.

One thing that I've always found to be a bit contradictory about the conservative, religious right republicans is that the say they want government to have less interference in people's lives, but they're for the most part the ones who want to tell us how we must live them according to their beliefs.

Um I hate to be the wet blanket here but doesn't the bible state that marriage is a union between a MAN and a WOMAN? Don't get me wrong, I could care less what people do behind closed doors but when you start getting in my face about how you should have the same rights as a hetero married couple I call bullshit! You chose an ALTERNATE lifestyle that goes against the norm. Why should I be penalized and have to pay more in premiums so that you and your gay lover can get healthcare.

Goddess wrote:

The voters in CA decided to vote on what other people can and can't do - and thankfully the supreme court overruled the decision. Gay marriage is now allowed in the state of CA.

Thank GOD!!

I think it's ludicrous that there even is a vote. We have NO right to tell others how to live their life. I think it's ridiculous that anyone has a say in anyone elses life choice. And I'm just thankful that the supreme court over ruled it!!

I know a lot of people who are uber happy today because of this ruling. I agree, Goddess, there should never need to be a reason to vote or overrule anything like this. Love is love... who the heck am I to point my finger and tell someone they can't or 'else'.

I'm on "God's" side.

GOD wrote:

Um I hate to be the wet blanket here but doesn't the bible state that marriage is a union between a MAN and a WOMAN? Don't get me wrong, I could care less what people do behind closed doors but when you start getting in my face about how you should have the same rights as a hetero married couple I call bullshit! You chose an ALTERNATE lifestyle that goes against the norm. Why should I be penalized and have to pay more in premiums so that you and your gay lover can get healthcare.

If you think about the norm.. think about years ago when it was the norm to have slavery and segregated schools.. The norm years ago was to have women walk behind their husbands and were owned like property... the norm changes. And some people don't believe in the bible.

Whose norm should we follow?

I believe in God - and I have faith.. but I also believe that God loves everyone, equally despite their race, color, sexual preference anything.

I am of the belief that a marriage is between 'a man and a woman'. Some may see that as discriminatory and well, I don't know what to say to that. Those are MY values. Those are the traditional values of our world. However, I understand what you are saying, Goddess, in that the ethics of society have evolved over the years.

Personally I am against same-sex marriage and the implications that it has on our society. IDK, for me it probably has as much to do with the left-wing liberals trying to force their values down my throat as anything. If it isn't that, it's someone trying to take "God" out of the pledge of allegiance, banning prayer in schools, etc.

I am concerned where our society is taking us.

I don't disagree with your values and I respect them completely nor would I try to change anyones mind. But again they are your values and others have different values. If a person disagrees with same sex marriage then I'm of the belief - don't have one . I just don't feel that my values or your values should be involved with others peoples lives.

I know that sometimes it seems society is going to hell in a hand basket & in some respects your absolutely right, but thank God society evolves or else women would still not be allowed to vote & being burned at the stake accused of being witches.

Again I repect everyones opinon and everyone has the right to feel the way they do - I just dont believe that anyones opinon should be controlling how other people live.

(thanks for the great discussion everyone -this is good!)

Goddess wrote:

I don't disagree with your values and I respect them completely nor would I try to change anyones mind. But again they are your values and others have different values. If a person disagrees with same sex marriage then I'm of the belief - don't have one . I just don't feel that my values or your values should be involved with others peoples lives.

I know that sometimes it seems society is going to hell in a hand basket & in some respects your absolutely right, but thank God society evolves or else women would still not be allowed to vote & being burned at the stake accused of being witches.

Again I repect everyones opinon and everyone has the right to feel the way they do - I just dont believe that anyones opinon should be controlling how other people live.

(thanks for the great discussion everyone -this is good!)

But Goddess... there has to be some form of standards for people to live by. If not, the world would be in even more chaos than it is now! For us, that standard is the constitution. The manipulation of the constitution, and trying to interpret things in it that simply don't exist drives me crazy! It's a tough call, because the bible teaches us to 'judge not lest ye be judged', but then again are we supposed to tolerate behaviors that we feel are against the intent of the bible?

I have this ongoing dilemma with a co-worker. She is of Bahai faith, which teaches that the Messiah has already come back to earth in the form of the leader of this religion, in the 1800's. They believe in everything that Christians believe in, they just take it a step further. While I want to accept her religious beliefs because I like and care for her a great deal, I find myself torn between that and rejecting it totally because it conflicts with the teachings of my upbringing. (note: the Bahai stuff that I stated is my understanding from what I have been told, there may be some error there...)

It's the same with same-sex marriages, for me. As god said, the bible defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman, so to accept something other than that... is it a sin? IDK. And before anyone labels me as a homophobe, please understand that I have a very close relationship with a co-worker who is a lesbian.

In the examples you cited, the people were being denied civil liberties. That is not the case here. It's just not. And what I find most repulsive about it is that there are so many of the liberal kooks that are trying to force THEIR values on me. For example, our children aren't able to sing "Silent Night" at a school Christmas program because it may offend someone? Give me a freakin' break!

Frankly, I'd personally like to find some simple compromise to this topic, but I don't know what that would be.

shameless1 wrote:

Goddess wrote:

I don't disagree with your values and I respect them completely nor would I try to change anyones mind. But again they are your values and others have different values. If a person disagrees with same sex marriage then I'm of the belief - don't have one . I just don't feel that my values or your values should be involved with others peoples lives.

I know that sometimes it seems society is going to hell in a hand basket & in some respects your absolutely right, but thank God society evolves or else women would still not be allowed to vote & being burned at the stake accused of being witches.

Again I repect everyones opinon and everyone has the right to feel the way they do - I just dont believe that anyones opinon should be controlling how other people live.

(thanks for the great discussion everyone -this is good!)

But Goddess... there has to be some form of standards for people to live by. If not, the world would be in even more chaos than it is now! For us, that standard is the constitution. The manipulation of the constitution, and trying to interpret things in it that simply don't exist drives me crazy! It's a tough call, because the bible teaches us to 'judge not lest ye be judged', but then again are we supposed to tolerate behaviors that we feel are against the intent of the bible?

I have this ongoing dilemma with a co-worker. She is of Bahai faith, which teaches that the Messiah has already come back to earth in the form of the leader of this religion, in the 1800's. They believe in everything that Christians believe in, they just take it a step further. While I want to accept her religious beliefs because I like and care for her a great deal, I find myself torn between that and rejecting it totally because it conflicts with the teachings of my upbringing. (note: the Bahai stuff that I stated is my understanding from what I have been told, there may be some error there...)

It's the same with same-sex marriages, for me. As god said, the bible defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman, so to accept something other than that... is it a sin? IDK. And before anyone labels me as a homophobe, please understand that I have a very close relationship with a co-worker who is a lesbian.

In the examples you cited, the people were being denied civil liberties. That is not the case here. It's just not. And what I find most repulsive about it is that there are so many of the liberal kooks that are trying to force THEIR values on me. For example, our children aren't able to sing "Silent Night" at a school Christmas program because it may offend someone? Give me a freakin' break!

Frankly, I'd personally like to find some simple compromise to this topic, but I don't know what that would be.

It infuriates me that someone complained and your kids can't sing that song . It's silly and the people that complained are just looking for things to pick on & you are right - there are liberal kooks doing just that. Just as there are right wing republicans trying to force their Christianity on me. Both sides are wrong.

But in that same respect just because you believe that it should only be between a man and a woman, doesn't make it so. You are right, it does say that in the bible, but I don't believe in the bible. I don't believe God would ever want that kind of a message sent to people he has created. But that's my opinion. I don't expect anyone to follow what I believe because it's just my opinion or that my belief system should dictate how other people should live their lives.

Should there be some standards? Yes such as no murder, no theft, no children being hurt or molested - things along those lines. We should not set standards based on religion. What you believe and what I believe i.e. Catholics, Jewish, Quakers, etc is a very private thing and has no business dictating what I can and can't do in my life. Seperation between church and state is there for a reason. I respect people who have a strong faith and that choose to follow the rules that their church sets up. But should the rules for your church and bible interfere with how I live my life based on what your God tells you.

I think we should celebrate all holidays. I think it is so silly that people complain about a nativity or a menora etc. It's all about celebrating and to each his own.

It's a hard topic. I don't believe that the Gay community is asking for anything extrodinary. The Gay community only is asking for are the same rights as you and I have as human beings and Americans. I have no right to tell them what they are doing is wrong or shouldn't be honored - nor do they have the right to tell me the same thing. It's very hard - no doubt

Humble opinion time:

Each and every person on this earth has the right to choose their truths. Those truths are as valid for them as they are for you. Bottom line is we are here to love unconditionally, no matter what. Isn't that what it's all about? Very very few of us reach that level of true humanity.

Most dogmas are influenced by "Man", like in the Catholic Church, the Popes and monks who picked and chose which passages made it into Bibles, for example, and will therefore take on some of the very human characteristics of their creators. Fear kept the masses in their 'place'. Salem Witch Trials, for example... there's fear running riot. Whomever chooses to believe in a dogma takes those characteristics and makes them their 'truth'.

So, cut away all the doctrines, etc... and you are left with a common message. Love, don't hurt others, live in peace. The rest is man-made.

As far as gay marriage, this is their truth. You can choose not to have that for yourself in your life, but for them, it's as true as your heterosexuality is to you. I wouldn't choose it for mine, and would prefer my children didn't choose it, but I won't (and can't) stop them from that choice. It has zero to do with spirituality (read - NOT religion). Religion (man-made dogmas) chooses to have a say so in it, and if you follow a particular religion, you might be influenced in your opinion of it. I certainly grew up in a household which was Roman Catholic, so yeah... I got the whole it's evil speech. As an adult, I learned I could and should question, and choose for myself. Hence, I'm spiritual, but there's no way I'll ever be "religious" again. I've seen some of the most atrocious behavior by so called "religious people". They're only human. The real message is unconditional love. So my challenge is loving them, despite me disagreeing with their methods and behavior.

Ramble at an end. And now back to your regularly scheduled program....

If it's your truth to say it's wrong, that's your truth, and I have zero power to change it. But you don't have power to change mine either. Free Will. Beautiful thing.

Goddess,

What is your opinion of Warren Jeffs and the Texas compound with the 18 wives and some that are 12 years old? Is that wrong? Or are we just supposed to 'live and let live'?

Just curious.

playitloudforme wrote:

Humble opinion time:

Each and every person on this earth has the right to choose their truths. Those truths are as valid for them as they are for you. Bottom line is we are here to love unconditionally, no matter what. Isn't that what it's all about? Very very few of us reach that level of true humanity.

Most dogmas are influenced by "Man", like in the Catholic Church, the Popes and monks who picked and chose which passages made it into Bibles, for example, and will therefore take on some of the very human characteristics of their creators. Fear kept the masses in their 'place'. Salem Witch Trials, for example... there's fear running riot. Whomever chooses to believe in a dogma takes those characteristics and makes them their 'truth'.

So, cut away all the doctrines, etc... and you are left with a common message. Love, don't hurt others, live in peace. The rest is man-made.

As far as gay marriage, this is their truth. You can choose not to have that for yourself in your life, but for them, it's as true as your heterosexuality is to you. I wouldn't choose it for mine, and would prefer my children didn't choose it, but I won't (and can't) stop them from that choice. It has zero to do with spirituality (read - NOT religion). Religion (man-made dogmas) chooses to have a say so in it, and if you follow a particular religion, you might be influenced in your opinion of it. I certainly grew up in a household which was Roman Catholic, so yeah... I got the whole it's evil speech. As an adult, I learned I could and should question, and choose for myself. Hence, I'm spiritual, but there's no way I'll ever be "religious" again. I've seen some of the most atrocious behavior by so called "religious people". They're only human. The real message is unconditional love. So my challenge is loving them, despite me disagreeing with their methods and behavior.

Ramble at an end. And now back to your regularly scheduled program....

If it's your truth to say it's wrong, that's your truth, and I have zero power to change it. But you don't have power to change mine either. Free Will. Beautiful thing.

Kate, you're right. Each person's experience influences their views on things such as this. I understand what you guys are saying, and I don't totally disagree with it. I do, however believe it is a perverbial 'slippery slope' that opens up the can of worms for people to use and abuse the constitution and what seems to happen is that the rights of the many get trampled on for the rights of the few. I'm not just talking about gay rights, but religion (or lack thereof), saluting the flag, etc.

I'm pretty conservative, in case many of you can't tell that... and I live in a small community and have not been exposed to a lot of different cultures and ideals. That definitely influences my viewpoint on lots of things. For better or worse, it's me.

shameless1 wrote:

Goddess,

What is your opinion of Warren Jeffs and the Texas compound with the 18 wives and some that are 12 years old? Is that wrong? Or are we just supposed to 'live and let live'?

Just curious.

Well, I disagree with it totally - these women are brainwashed into thinking that they have no other choices. They are beaten down (from all the articles I've read from the women who have escapted). They are locked away from all of society which gives them no access. If that guy didn't think he was doing anything wrong, he wouldn't have closed them off on some hillside so they couldn't interact with the rest of the world. He knew he was doing something wrong. Young children having babies - marrying people 30+ years older, thats a bit differerent.

There are extremists in every walk of life - and obviously some people do things that are clearly illegal (sex with minors etc) and hide behind "it's our religion."

".....There are extremists in every walk of life - and obviously some people do things that are clearly illegal (sex with minors etc) and hide behind "it's our religion."....."[i]

I totally agree with that.

Also, too, there are people who are intolerant and kill people who are considered "infidels" and are not of "their religion". They resort to terrorism and hide behind "it's our religion".

I still believe that marriage is reserved as a covenant between a man and a woman, but hopefully we can disagree, agreeably.

nolliD JJ wrote:

I still believe that marriage is reserved as a covenant between a man and a woman, but hopefully we can disagree, agreeably.

Of course we can! I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to change their beliefs. Everyone has their own beliefs, own opinions and even though I may not agree with you or you with me.. I respect and value each and everyone of you.

nolliD JJ wrote:

".....There are extremists in every walk of life - and obviously some people do things that are clearly illegal (sex with minors etc) and hide behind "it's our religion."....."[i]

I totally agree with that.

Also, too, there are people who are intolerant and kill people who are considered "infidels" and are not of "their religion". They resort to terrorism and hide behind "it's our religion".

I still believe that marriage is reserved as a covenant between a man and a woman, but hopefully we can disagree, agreeably.

I agree also that what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
However,I DISAGREE with the Supreme Court over ruling the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
That is dictatorship,and frankly very,very dangerous.
The people of California voted and said they did not want gay marriage,yet the courts overruled what the people said.
Be careful what you wish for.

Should we now allow multiple partners or polygamy?
If we put that out to a vote, and the voice of the people vote against it,should the court then over turn it because a small minority want that for themselves?
As JJ said,it opens a lot of cans of worms.

Michael Leigh wrote:

nolliD JJ wrote:

".....There are extremists in every walk of life - and obviously some people do things that are clearly illegal (sex with minors etc) and hide behind "it's our religion."....."[i]

I totally agree with that.

Also, too, there are people who are intolerant and kill people who are considered "infidels" and are not of "their religion". They resort to terrorism and hide behind "it's our religion".

I still believe that marriage is reserved as a covenant between a man and a woman, but hopefully we can disagree, agreeably.

I agree also that what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
However,I DISAGREE with the Supreme Court over ruling the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
That is dictatorship,and frankly very,very dangerous.
The people of California voted and said they did not want gay marriage,yet the courts overruled what the people said.
Be careful what you wish for.

Should we now allow multiple partners or polygamy?
If we put that out to a vote, and the voice of the people vote against it,should the court then over turn it because a small minority want that for themselves?
As JJ said,it opens a lot of cans of worms.

That is going to the extreme. two people that want to be married - shouldn't matter what 'others' say.. it's none of our business and we are making a decision based on the bible? The bible doesn't belong in dictating everyone lives if they choose not to believe in it. We are not talking polygamy or beastiality or whatever other things people may say - it's just 2 people who are in love and want to be married. The 'people' have NO right to tell me or anyone else what I should do regarding that.
IMO

Hate to go against you on this one there Goddess but the United States was FOUNDED on Christian Principles. Look at the back of your money. On EVERY single denomination it clearly states "IN GOD WE TRUST" Our constitution was written based on the principles of the bible and the ten commandments as well. So to say that we should just turn a blind eye "just because" doesn't really carry any merit, at least to me. I take the laws of this country very seriously and I take my faith equally as serious. So much so I served in the Military to uphold our beliefs and laws.

GOD wrote:

Hate to go against you on this one there Goddess but the United States was FOUNDED on Christian Principles. Look at the back of your money. On EVERY single denomination it clearly states "IN GOD WE TRUST" Our constitution was written based on the principles of the bible and the ten commandments as well. So to say that we should just turn a blind eye "just because" doesn't really carry any merit, at least to me. I take the laws of this country very seriously and I take my faith equally as serious. So much so I served in the Military to uphold our beliefs and laws.

It's cool - I am not offended at all! Honestly, like I said - we are lucky we live here because we can express our beliefs even if it is in disagreement

Goddess wrote:

GOD wrote:

Hate to go against you on this one there Goddess but the United States was FOUNDED on Christian Principles. Look at the back of your money. On EVERY single denomination it clearly states "IN GOD WE TRUST" Our constitution was written based on the principles of the bible and the ten commandments as well. So to say that we should just turn a blind eye "just because" doesn't really carry any merit, at least to me. I take the laws of this country very seriously and I take my faith equally as serious. So much so I served in the Military to uphold our beliefs and laws.

It's cool - I am not offended at all! Honestly, like I said - we are lucky we live here because we can express our beliefs even if it is in disagreement

And THANK YOU for your service oh GODLY one.

Goddess,I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.
Let's just say that I am in love with 2 women,and can't decide on which to marry.
Shouldn't I have that right too?There are plenty of people in this country that feel the same way,especially a lot of Mormons.It's not a biblical issue,but a matter of where do you draw the line?

The VAST majority of people in this country believe that marriage is between a man and a women,and the VAST majority OVERWHELMINGLY agreed.What is next for the Supreme Court of California going to overrule.
These judges are legislating from the bench,which is a dangerous,dangerous thing in a representative republic (which we are.We really are not a democracy).

We have gotten to a point in this country,where we are beginning to cater to the minority of people rather then the majority.I know it's a different situation, but I heard a news report today that some minor league ballpark, has now banned peanuts from being sold at the ballpark, because 1 PERSON complained,because her kid has a peanut allergy.1 PERSON out of the thousands that attend baseball games at this park.

Sorry,but why are we making everyone suffer rather then telling 1 person not to come to the ballpark if their kid is allergic to peanuts?

I know it's a bit different,but you get the point.

Michael Leigh wrote:

Goddess wrote:

GOD wrote:

Hate to go against you on this one there Goddess but the United States was FOUNDED on Christian Principles. Look at the back of your money. On EVERY single denomination it clearly states "IN GOD WE TRUST" Our constitution was written based on the principles of the bible and the ten commandments as well. So to say that we should just turn a blind eye "just because" doesn't really carry any merit, at least to me. I take the laws of this country very seriously and I take my faith equally as serious. So much so I served in the Military to uphold our beliefs and laws.

It's cool - I am not offended at all! Honestly, like I said - we are lucky we live here because we can express our beliefs even if it is in disagreement

And THANK YOU for your service oh GODLY one.

Goddess,I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.
Let's just say that I am in love with 2 women,and can't decide on which to marry.
Shouldn't I have that right too?There are plenty of people in this country that feel the same way,especially a lot of Mormons.It's not a biblical issue,but a matter of where do you draw the line?

The VAST majority of people in this country believe that marriage is between a man and a women,and the VAST majority OVERWHELMINGLY agreed.What is next for the Supreme Court of California going to overrule.
These judges are legislating from the bench,which is a dangerous,dangerous thing in a representative republic (which we are.We really are not a democracy).

We have gotten to a point in this country,where we are beginning to cater to the minority of people rather then the majority.I know it's a different situation, but I heard a news report today that some minor league ballpark, has now banned peanuts from being sold at the ballpark, because 1 PERSON complained,because her kid has a peanut allergy.1 PERSON out of the thousands that attend baseball games at this park.

Sorry,but why are we making everyone suffer rather then telling 1 person not to come to the ballpark if their kid is allergic to peanuts?

I know it's a bit different,but you get the point.

I do know what you mean, and I agree with you on some of it - the peanut thing is STUPID! And I think you have every right to feel the way you do - absolutely and I'm not trying to change your mind.
But if you are going ot take it to the extreme of polygamy then I can take it to the extreme too. There was a vast majority a long time ago that thought slavery was acceptable & that all people in Germany should look like a certain way with a certain distance between their eyes etc.. Change thankfully happened.

Is what I am saying extreme? Yes, but so is the argument that it's dangerous and what will it lead to next is extreme to me.

So what should we do? Ban Gay relationships? Or is just the word "marriage" that is really the issue? It's 2 people in love that want the same rights as you do. That is all.

But again, I respect all of you and your opinions And no offense taken, whatsoever