Journey.. Joke? or Not ?

Discuss

I see you all reading it - so discuss!

My opinion? I don't really like the new guy.. I am just amazed at how many people supported JSS and now say he was just a 'fill - in.'

Today's Journey... total JOKE!

I love the SP era and the JSS era, and although I wasn't a huge SA fan, I enjoyed the concert that I went to back in the 90's. However, the depths to which this organization has sunk over the past few years has left me with a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm just not interested.

I MUCH prefer my "Journey" when Neal Schon looked like this..............

Oh mighty Goddess and shameless one I agree with both of you girls.Why would I spend my hard earned money to go buy The Greatest Hits when I have the original and that means The Voice... yes that's right and you all and everyone reading this in the future know who I mean the one and only STEVE PERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! ok ok calm myself down here.Back to the subject,No money going out of my pocket for this geritol,alimony,child support group what so ever.And as far as what JSS did for this group,they should have literally kissed his ass.This guy is great! He is the ultimate Rock God! His stage presence,his voice,not talking about those dance moves oooooo.But this JSS guy is the ultimate TOTAL PACKAGE.Neal and Jon,must have lost their ever stupid minds letting this guy go.And yes I have read all the kool-aid drinkers saying but he wasn't the Journey sound.This so-called guy made Journey a legitimate band again.And with him they could have wrote new music which this band is in dire need of and made them a relevent band again.But no we are gonna have to hear all about the greatest hits sung by someone else as if we have never heard these songs before.So shall we continue this topic???

They completely disgust me. I can't even stand to look at pictures of them and I have no intention of listening to them.

Amazing also some 'fans' that used to REALLY support Perry now bash him... hrmm....

Yeah that seems strange to me too. It's as if they have to justify remaining fans of the pathetic thing calling itself Journey now so they do it by turning on Perry.

Ok. here it goes....

I got the Chilie boot. I listened to it for two weeks straight. Non stop IN MY SUV. I am a physician Liaison so I drive from hospital to hospital quite a bit. Actually alot. I have listened to Arnel. I hated the mother fucker initially. I love Perry. Love SA. Met the guy and got to know him. Treated me and my whole family well. Love JSS. So Neal goes ahead and fucks everything up from SA to JSS to Arnel. I mean hiring a fucking guy off YouTube? C'mon Neal. U R the one that said you never did the net to talk to us fucked up fans remember? U too Friga.

But anyway.....I listen to Arnel for several weeks straight. I like his voice. I don't like his concert add-libs and so on. I wish I could go on with the negatives, but I can't. Oh, wait, I can, I don't like the way he looks either.....

Three weeks later, I pop in a boot from 2003. SA in San Fran. "Now and Then" concert. SA sounded good. 2003 was his "prime" in Journey. From 2005 on, we really can't be sure was it live or was it memorex. I love SA, and I think he should have stood up to Neal and said I need a break, my voice is toast, but he didn't.

OK, OK, so I'm rambling here. My point?

SA vs. Arnel? I think Arnel has some real strong points and some obvious talent. I wish he could speak American. But his Journey sound, and Journey era has begun I believe. I think they will make a run with him. Will any song EVER......................................EVER make a chart? Nope. Just not a Journey world anymore. However, when the news of a new Journey album hit's Ghetto Mart and the Journey world, 10,000 people will buy a few just in in case. I'd like to hear Arnel sing with Neal and the gang. I really would like to hear some new Journey. I wish it was with SA or JSS, but it's life I guess.

In Chilie, he nailed, I mean Nailed Separate Ways, Open Arms, Faithfully, Edge of the Blade, and a few others. Only the Young and Ask the Lonely were the best since Steve Perry sang them. God, I hate fucking saying that. I am just so fucking mad and pissed at Neal and Co. for what they did to SA and JSS, I just don't know if I would ever buy front row seats to see them. Lawn seats will be good for me I think this year. I really don't want to meet Arnel. I'd love to shoot the breeze again with Deen. But I really hate Neal and Friga. Yes, they fucking "STUMBLED" across another good replacement. If they wanted the Perry sound, they should have gone 100% and hired Hugo or Chelfont. I don't think I could look Neal and Friga in the eyes ever again. I did it, I don't want to do it again. I might say something.

I don't know. I'm trying to make sense, but I can't. The whole Journey thing doesn't make sense I guess. So why and how can I??? I will give Arnel a shot. Will I try really hard to get back and meet him? Can I just say HI to Deen and call it a night? I don't know. Good Luck Arnel. I like your sound and voice. I think your stage presence leaves alot to be desired. I think starting over at 50, is not what Neal wanted to do, but he's got it.

I do have to say one thing. Thank GOD for this place. Has anyone been to Journey's Forum? What a bunch of fucking morons, playing with their dicks and you know what? I have never seen so much child-like behavior and "sweetness" in one place. It's fucking ugly. I can't believe Mark and CJ have bought into so much bullshit. It's like re-creating the world over there. All those fucking dumbfucks asking "What if Arnel bleached his hair again....." and other shit like that. God, atleast at MR there is some brains and stimulation. I feel like I am reading a 3rd grade message board at Journey's Board....... Please, don't ever ban me from a forum again, send me to Journey's Message Board and only let em post there for a week. I'd run my head over with my truck!!!!!!

e-

Well thought out post. Could have used a few less F-bombs but excellent observations. Will I go get this CD? I guess I kinda have to now so it can be reviewed here fairly and objectively. My initial impressions of the whole thing are these. They screwed over SA, although in fairness he is not without blame in the situation. JSS - No one seems to know what exactly happened here but I am sure that someday that will come to light as well. Then we move on to Arnel - In fairness to the guy I will not attack him because he took a golden opportunity that was laid at his feet. I can't say I wouldn't have jumped had it been me being offered that gig. There is one other singer in the recent past that is seemingly being forgotten because he never actually hit the stage with Journey, but technically speaking he was the offical singer between JSS and Arnel. That would be Jeremey Hunsicker. Again, what happened here is fodder for much speculation. I have read Jeremeys' blog and found it quite interesting insight into the inner workings of the Journey machine. However I would have to hear the Journey side of the story to be able to piece together the truth. As everyone know, there are three sides to every story, My side, your side and somewhere in between those lies the truth. Back to Arnel, I have also listened to the Chile concert and I found him to merely Ok. I wasn't blown away and I surely didn't find him to be the "Real Deal" as Neal puts it every time he hires a new singer. For god's sake he introduced Neal as the keyboard player. I would think he would at least know who his bandmates are and what instruments they all play. I also still have a very big problem with the diction issues. Will they improve? I don't know, maybe.
Do the diction issues matter at this point? The guy has the job whether or not we like it or agree with it so if we want to continue to listen to Journey we have two options - Either keep spinning the old Journey stuff in our cd players or try and get ourselves up for the new lineup. I choose the former. I'd rather listen to the songs done by the original, SA, or JSS. All three at least could clearly enunciate all the lyrics as they were written.

GOD wrote:

Well thought out post. Could have used a few less F-bombs but excellent observations. Will I go get this CD? I guess I kinda have to now so it can be reviewed here fairly and objectively. My initial impressions of the whole thing are these. They screwed over SA, although in fairness he is not without blame in the situation. JSS - No one seems to know what exactly happened here but I am sure that someday that will come to light as well. Then we move on to Arnel - In fairness to the guy I will not attack him because he took a golden opportunity that was laid at his feet. I can't say I wouldn't have jumped had it been me being offered that gig. There is one other singer in the recent past that is seemingly being forgotten because he never actually hit the stage with Journey, but technically speaking he was the offical singer between JSS and Arnel. That would be Jeremey Hunsicker. Again, what happened here is fodder for much speculation. I have read Jeremeys' blog and found it quite interesting insight into the inner workings of the Journey machine. However I would have to hear the Journey side of the story to be able to piece together the truth. As everyone know, there are three sides to every story, My side, your side and somewhere in between those lies the truth. Back to Arnel, I have also listened to the Chile concert and I found him to merely Ok. I wasn't blown away and I surely didn't find him to be the "Real Deal" as Neal puts it every time he hires a new singer. For god's sake he introduced Neal as the keyboard player. I would think he would at least know who his bandmates are and what instruments they all play. I also still have a very big problem with the diction issues. Will they improve? I don't know, maybe.
Do the diction issues matter at this point? The guy has the job whether or not we like it or agree with it so if we want to continue to listen to Journey we have two options - Either keep spinning the old Journey stuff in our cd players or try and get ourselves up for the new lineup. I choose the former. I'd rather listen to the songs done by the original, SA, or JSS. All three at least could clearly enunciate all the lyrics as they were written.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on Jeremy. But like JSS, will we ever really know what happened? Maybe I will try to get Jer drunk some night after a concert and then ask....

I do wish I had the Vegas boot. I can't believe it's not out anywhere. Trust me, I have looked. I would like to hear that one too just for the Arnel rection and speaking to the crowd. I heard it was a much better concert.

e-

If you really think about it though.. it's a brilliant marketing tool ... finding the singer for a rock group on youtube - it's going to get them a lot of publicity

Absolutely brilliant publicity stunt. Doesn't necessarily make him the best singer for the job. They will get a lot of mileage out of the whole youtube rags to riches story.

GOD wrote:

Absolutely brilliant publicity stunt. Doesn't necessarily make him the best singer for the job. They will get a lot of mileage out of the whole youtube rags to riches story.

exactly!

Still won't get the new music any radio play. The stations are only going to play the music that people recognize. Even the re-records are not going to sound like the songs people recognize so that is a mute effort at backdooring their way onto the radio.

ok here goes.............

i watched the chile show on tv, my cable company offers the channel as part of the spanish package that i didn't even know i had. so my opinion was not clouded by poor streaming online. yeah arenel can sing, but, because he doesn't understand the words he is singing, the passion is not there. that was it in a nutshell. he slurs the words to cover the diction issues and it's annoying. he was out of breath by the fifth song, struggled with screeching high notes and overall did not have "IT".

for me the way they are using the youtube thing, is the same way they used the, "neal heard wild on the run on the radio and pulled over cause he thought it was a journey song he forgot they recorded" oh please fast forward to 2008 and he says " i was so frustrated at not having a singer". dude you had two of them. you hated one so much you wouldn't give him rest and honestly i don't know what the other one did to you. and once again neal uses the phrase "he's the real deal".

i think most of us feel the same way, that the appalling way that this band handles stuff is what has turned most of us off. i think the biggest turn off is the blatant re-recording of the hits to get the cash from the new pinoy market that arnel has opened them up to. that's who it's for. anyone think maybe SA and JSS were asked to re-record and blatantly refused, knowing how the fans would feel?!?!??!?!?!?

will they have a "hit"...........define the word in today's music atmosphere and get back to me. will i listen to new music, if it's posted somewhere yes. but i am not plunking down one red cent for anything neal, jon, deen, ross or arnel do. my journey discography ended with generations.

iRockJava wrote:

ok here goes.............

will they have a "hit"...........define the word in today's music atmosphere and get back to me. will i listen to new music, if it's posted somewhere yes. but i am not plunking down one red cent for anything neal, jon, deen, ross or arnel do. my journey discography ended with generations.

U know I was thinking this am about this. I was at a hospital and was sitting waiting on a MD and Ellen had the Jonas Brother's on....Holy shit!!! Journey will never, ever get that type of exposure and they sucked today to be honest with you. The songs were, choppy and short and had ZERO substance to them.....Where is Journey going to fit in in the radio industry? No where!!! Sorry.

e-

Jrny1 wrote:

iRockJava wrote:

ok here goes.............

will they have a "hit"...........define the word in today's music atmosphere and get back to me. will i listen to new music, if it's posted somewhere yes. but i am not plunking down one red cent for anything neal, jon, deen, ross or arnel do. my journey discography ended with generations.

U know I was thinking this am about this. I was at a hospital and was sitting waiting on a MD and Ellen had the Jonas Brother's on....Holy shit!!! Journey will never, ever get that type of exposure and they sucked today to be honest with you. The songs were, choppy and short and had ZERO substance to them.....Where is Journey going to fit in in the radio industry? No where!!! Sorry.

e-

no - Journey won't have a 'hit' - like in the pop world. The pop scene sucks anyway in my opinion - I can't stand it. It's fast food music - just a bunch of 1 hit wonders - they don't care about longevity - only the most current fad

Goddess wrote:

Jrny1 wrote:

iRockJava wrote:

ok here goes.............

will they have a "hit"...........define the word in today's music atmosphere and get back to me. will i listen to new music, if it's posted somewhere yes. but i am not plunking down one red cent for anything neal, jon, deen, ross or arnel do. my journey discography ended with generations.

U know I was thinking this am about this. I was at a hospital and was sitting waiting on a MD and Ellen had the Jonas Brother's on....Holy shit!!! Journey will never, ever get that type of exposure and they sucked today to be honest with you. The songs were, choppy and short and had ZERO substance to them.....Where is Journey going to fit in in the radio industry? No where!!! Sorry.

e-

no - Journey won't have a 'hit' - like in the pop world. The pop scene sucks anyway in my opinion - I can't stand it. It's fast food music - just a bunch of 1 hit wonders - they don't care about longevity - only the most current fad

but unfortunately that theory is keeping good music off the radio stations and out of the public radar. not that i think ANY band, especially one on their 3rd singer in 2 years, is going to get a hit. But then again, maybe the youtube story is just what will put them on the radio. I don't really care, because at this point, nothing they do will be good enough for me.

total joke....and unfortunately, one that i do not see the humor in....journey died to me 2
years ago....the tickets for their summer concert in my area go on sale this weekend and i am
going to enjoy the lack of interest by myself and the general population in this area...and find the humor in that....

Folks, I'm battered and torn on the Journey subject. As some of you know, I've been one of the more vocal journey bashers as of late.

But here's some undeniably positive facts that pertain to Journey, past, present and future:

* Neal Schon is one of the greatest guitarists that ever lived
* Steve Perry *is* the greatest singer that will ever sing or has ever sung.
* Steve Smith is the greatest drummer to ever play the drums.
* Greg Rolie is one of the greatest rock/blues keyboard/organ players to play.
* Ross Valory is one funny motherfucker.
* Jon Cain has written some of the most beautiful melodies ever...and he at the very least, looks like a man.
* Journey, as a whole, has written some of the most amazing songs every committed to tape.
* Steve Augeri (and to a lesser extent, JSS) gave this band new life to continue producing amazing music for us to enjoy.

Then you look at the negatives:
* Neal's not a nice person, neither is Cain.
* Perry may (or may not) be a nice person but he suffers from control addictions which have resulted in scuttling Journey in both 86 and 96.
* Journey has had some rather awful people work for them in recent years. Twomey, Assoff, Consolo, etc.....which has prevented the band from progressing forward with good 'public image'


Now, before we discuss the current path Journey has taken, a look back at the past suggests, at least to me, that the good outweighs the bad. I can deal with Neal and Cain's dirty work. I can deal with the fact that Perry alone, can be held responsible for Journey dying two deaths....I can deal with the fact that they have some assholes working for them. It allows me to enjoy the fact that Escape and Winds of March are two of the greatest songs ever written.


So having said all of that...lets talk about what Journey has done in the past year or so:

Fire Augeri
Augeri had the rug pulled out from under him, no doubt. Was it deserved? no. Was it in an attempt to take the band to a level they thought they couldn't get to with Augeri? who knows. I cant pretend to know the answer to that...but clearly, something went wrong in Journey immediately after the Arrival tour was concluded. The focus of the band shifted from forward-thinking to retro-spective. Not good. They turned into a nostalgia act...and one that I felt became worse and worse looking each and every year.

Fire JSS
some will argue it was underhanded and dirty. i would agree. This is not the way to break up *any* relationship. Some will argue that it's better for the band as JSS was *not* the right singer for Journey. I would only partially agree with that. While I feel that Journey was in a position to move in a new direction with JSS (like Sammy Hagar and Van Halen), they would have to abandon ALOT of the early music sung by Perry...as JSS did NOT have the vocal register to sing perry. He would have fallen appart alot quicker than even Augeri, if he continued singing Journey's catalog at concert pitch.

Arnel
This is a tough subject. Arnel, while suffering from diction problems and carrying a certain third-world stigma, is arguable the closest timbre-wise to Steve Perry that the band could have ever gotten. At times, you can close your eyes and go "holy shit, it's perry". It's scary. Then, of course, you hear the diction issues and you get slammed back to reality.

Do I believe that Arnel can work out the diction issues? Yes. Firmly. An accent is something that CAN be irradicated from either a speaking voice or a singing voice. Look at any foreign actor that has played an american. Nicole Kidman, Mel Gibson, The actor that played The Agent from the Matrix movies, etc. With coaching, Arnel can ditch the accent. What still remains is the seemingly pinoy infestation of what was once an american fan base. That bothers me. When you're a fan of something, you not only identify with the something, but the people that follow it as well. There's a comradery within the AOR music fan base. The pinoy infestation sorta strikes me like carpetbaggers. The thought of "where the fuck were you 10, 20 years ago" hits hard.....



Regardless, Im confused. I think the new Journey has potential, if delivered properly. I think the re-recordings are ilconceived, however. Hopefully, it wont bite them in the ass.

There's one of the new songs that has MAD potential...and if marketted properly, can make some waves. The question, is, does Assoff still have enough mojo to pull it off?

-F

Your whole post was well thought out and presented Frank. It sounds like you're approaching it with an open mind. I guess I'm not because I'm offended by the very existence of Arnel in that band. I don't care how good the new music may or may not sound, they've become just like any another product with an American brand that's being made cheaply in an Asian country to me.

The only point I would disagree with is the one about Perry stopping Journey. They could at any point from '86 on tried it with a new frontman just like they did in '97. It was their decision not to. I presonally don't think they'd have been any more successful with it then than they've been since, but we'll never really know about that.

One point I wholeheartedly agree with is this one:

frank wrote:

What still remains is the seemingly pinoy infestation of what was once an american fan base. That bothers me. When you're a fan of something, you not only identify with the something, but the people that follow it as well. There's a comradery within the AOR music fan base. The pinoy infestation sorta strikes me like carpetbaggers. The thought of "where the fuck were you 10, 20 years ago" hits hard.....

-F

ohsherrie wrote:

Your whole post was well thought out and presented Frank. It sounds like you're approaching it with an open mind. I guess I'm not because I'm offended by the very existence of Arnel in that band. I don't care how good the new music may or may not sound, they've become just like any another product with an American brand that's being made cheaply in an Asian country to me.

Thanks Sher. The way I'm looking at it is this...this new album might be great. It's hard for me to say "it wont work" until I hear it. I wish I could just go 'fuck them!' and walk....but I can't do that until they give me a reason based in music, not personnel. I got into Journey, not because I thought Neal Schon was a dick or Steve Perry was a control freak. I got into Journey because Neal Schon was a mind-numbingly good guitarist and Steve Perry was the best singer to ever live. Granted, Perry isn't involved in this equation anymore...but it would be hypocritical for me to write-off Journey because Neal Schon is a dick, when I got into Journey for the right reasons. Now, if the new album comes out, and its crap, I can walk away with a clear conscience...because i didn't turn away based on personnel reasons. I turned away based on musical ones.

So while some people are taking this personally, and its within their right....you have to ask yourself, as a fan, why did you start listening? If it was because of Perry and Perry alone? well, then there's no reason to continue. Was it because of Perry/Schon, like myself? well, then there's still a reason to listen...with a caveat that you can walk away if it's bad....there's no doubting the fact that Arnel is a talented singer and sounds like Perry in some way shape or form. Can they recreate some (i.e. "NOT all") of the magic? Maybe....and thats why I've changed my tune from prejudgment to refraining on judgment until this album is released.

ohsherrie wrote:

The only point I would disagree with is the one about Perry stopping Journey. They could at any point from '86 on tried it with a new frontman just like they did in '97. It was their decision not to. I personally don't think they'd have been any more successful with it then than they've been since, but we'll never really know about that.

While, I agree with you there in principle, I think that Cain and Schon were both convinced that the formula that made Journey successful, was entirely dependent on Perry's involvement. Hell, you said yourself, just above, that you feel they wouldn't have met with success without Perry...so you obviously feel the same way. There are hordes of people out there that feel Perry was an absolutely *integral* part of the success.

Perhaps Schon and Cain were unwilling to test the theory between 86-96. When TBF's tour failed to get off the ground, I think Schon and Cain finally admitted they weren't going to get Perry to agree to this...and after 10 years of deep freeze, they tried to get things moving forward with an alternative they were previously unwilling to consider.

So while, the idea that 'nothing was stopping them from moving on without perry in 86 and 96' is a valid statement, I'll submit that Perry, being the worlds greatest singer, alive, dead or unborn....was simply too much of an empty void to replace....Schon knew/knows it. Cain knew/knows it. we all know it. It's just a question of whether or not someone is willing to take a watered down version of the same formula, in the absence of the real thing.

It's basically....Will you dirty water from a garden hose when you run out of bottled water?

that's a great post frank.

i guess for me it's personal and will continue to be. getting involved in the forums was a double edged sword. put me in touch with some great people, great new music, great old music i hadn't listened to in a long time, but on the other side it put me too close to the dirtiness of the band that i had loved for so long. for me, the words and actions coming out of schon and cain over the last 2 years are a direct contradiction of the meaning of the music they play. don't stop believin!??!?! why shouldn't i when they throw people away like yesterday's garbage and immediately are calling the new guy the "real deal". happened first with the official announcement of jss being in the band. and now they make like the last 10 years have been a living hell and finally they have been saved and are going to new heights with arnel. of course they will. he brings a market that in the us alone is comprised by 3 million to 4 million pinoys, who for the most part, probably new nothing of journey, but now that the local boy does good they are on board. as you stated frank, one starts to say "where the hell were you in 1981, 1982 and 1983 when this band was blowing the arena circuit up". kinda makes me feel like the band is throwing me, the fan since 1978, out like yesterday's garbage too.

frank wrote:

Thanks Sher. The way I'm looking at it is this...this new album might be great. It's hard for me to say "it wont work" until I hear it. I wish I could just go 'fuck them!' and walk....but I can't do that until they give me a reason based in music, not personnel. I got into Journey, not because I thought Neal Schon was a dick or Steve Perry was a control freak. I got into Journey because Neal Schon was a mind-numbingly good guitarist and Steve Perry was the best singer to ever live. Granted, Perry isn't involved in this equation anymore...but it would be hypocritical for me to write-off Journey because Neal Schon is a dick, when I got into Journey for the right reasons. Now, if the new album comes out, and its crap, I can walk away with a clear conscience...because i didn't turn away based on personnel reasons. I turned away based on musical ones.

So while some people are taking this personally, and its within their right....you have to ask yourself, as a fan, why did you start listening? If it was because of Perry and Perry alone? well, then there's no reason to continue. Was it because of Perry/Schon, like myself? well, then there's still a reason to listen...with a caveat that you can walk away if it's bad....there's no doubting the fact that Arnel is a talented singer and sounds like Perry in some way shape or form. Can they recreate some (i.e. "NOT all") of the magic? Maybe....and thats why I've changed my tune from prejudgment to refraining on judgment until this album is released.

That makes perfect sense. It was Perry's voice that made me a Journey fan. I acknowledge that the magic of Journey that set it apart from Perry solo was due to the combination of his talent with those of Neal and Rollie to begin with and then Neal and Cain, but it was really always all about the Voice for me and there in no other voice like.

Frank wrote:

While, I agree with you there in principle, I think that Cain and Schon were both convinced that the formula that made Journey successful, was entirely dependent on Perry's involvement. Hell, you said yourself, just above, that you feel they wouldn't have met with success without Perry...so you obviously feel the same way. There are hordes of people out there that feel Perry was an absolutely *integral* part of the success.

Perhaps Schon and Cain were unwilling to test the theory between 86-96. When TBF's tour failed to get off the ground, I think Schon and Cain finally admitted they weren't going to get Perry to agree to this...and after 10 years of deep freeze, they tried to get things moving forward with an alternative they were previously unwilling to consider.

So while, the idea that 'nothing was stopping them from moving on without perry in 86 and 96' is a valid statement, I'll submit that Perry, being the worlds greatest singer, alive, dead or unborn....was simply too much of an empty void to replace....Schon knew/knows it. Cain knew/knows it. we all know it. It's just a question of whether or not someone is willing to take a watered down version of the same formula, in the absence of the real thing.

It's basically....Will you dirty water from a garden hose when you run out of bottled water?

Yeah, that's absolutely what held them back, but you can't blame Perry for their lack of confidence or unwillingness to settle for less than the best. He never did anything to stop them. He might have tried to if they had, but they could have done it just like they did in '97.

Some people still think he came back for Trial by Fire just to keep them from going on without him but that's not true. Sony handed him an ultimatum using further promotion of FTLOSM as leverage to get him to do it. Then they stopped promoting it anyway to hype the reunion.

I just find it frustrating that people flip flop SO incredibly you know? Going from absolute HATING them - to being the biggest cheerleaders?? Makes no sense??